AJCrowley says:

You don't believe that the account of US soldiers firing upon Italians could possibly be correct? The big difference between the stories here is that the Italians have no reason whatsoever to lie, the US have every reason.

AJ, this makes no sense.

The Americans only have reason to lie, if they made mistakes. If they made no mistakes, then they have every reason to tell the truth.

The Italians, meanwhile, have no reason to lie, unless they made mistakes. If they did make mistakes, then they have every reason to cover them up.

So the Americans say one thing, and the Italians say another, but we're still no closer to determining which party is telling the truth, and which party is lying.

Furthermore, the journalist is a self-avowed Communist, writing for a Communist newspaper. I'm not saying all Communists are liars, mind you. I am, however, saying that Communists, just like Capitalists, have been known to lie in the past, and have generally been quick to give ideological justifications for their lies. One must at least consider the possibility that Sgrena is lying for ideological reasons.

And let's not forget that Sgrena was shot at, wounded, and had someone die right on top of her. That has got to be a pretty stressful, traumatic experience. One must also consider the possibility that she is not lying, but rather that her recollection of events is somewhat inaccurate.

I'm not saying all this to discredit Sgrena's account of events, but to refute your ridiculous claim that the Italians have no reason to lie and that their account is more trustworthy than the American account.

Well, people in general have a tendency to be liars, particularly politicians, though I've never seen someones political beliefs lean them towards lying (unless right wingers really don't believe all the ridiculous things they say, they're just having a huge joke at the expense of the world). The Italians, if their account were false, would have no reason to give it, they don't need to defend themselves because they were shot, the burden of proof is on the US in my opinion, who if their account isn't true, have every reason in the world to lie. Let's look at it this way - Italians agreeing with American account of events, nothing much is different. Americans agreeing with Italians, implies that US troops fired upon innocent civilians without reason, heads will roll, alliances will be broken, international opinion of the US will go down even further, if that's even possible. I don't see any reason or sense to your counter-argument. One thing that I hope we can agree upon, the agent who took bullets and gave his life to save that woman is a true hero. I've not heard any accounts of American troops in Iraq doing anything so heroic as giving their own life, on purpose, to save an innocent. Have you heard of any American troops taking a bullet on purpose to save someone? I've heard plenty accounts of them being the benefactors of said bullets.

Of course, nothing I have or can say at this point constitutes proof, but it does in my opinion (and I'm not alone) sway the argument in favour of the Italians.

Sure, we can agree that the Italian agent who died was a hero. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, though.

If the Italians screwed up, then this entire horrible tragedy can be rightly blamed on them. Sure, it wouldn't ruin their relationship with the U.S. (and I don't think that the American screwup you suspect would have the devastating results, international relations-wise, that you predict), but it would present a very different target for all that Italian grief and frustration back home.

It would, in fact, make things very uncomfortable for the people currently claiming that it's not their fault. Personally, I'm satisfied that both parties have a compelling motive and ample opportunity to lie about what really happened.

As to the relative heroism of Italian agents and U.S. Troops, perhaps part of the problem is that you're not varying your media diet enough. This guy keeps a running tally of good news from Iraq. It's an ongoing series, so make sure to read all the previous updates. The "Coalition Troops" sections are especially relevant to our discussion. The way I see it, every time an engineer battaltion eats an IED on its way to restore water to some region of Iraq, heroism is in effect.

Perhaps, but not to the same degree, as true heroism is making a choice to give your life, not having your life taken.

I will read the site with open minded skepticism, I could sure use some good news from Iraq. I have trouble taking seriously many "positive" news stories from Iraq, since they were openly staged for the cameras, such as the tearing down of the statues of Hussein. Your own soldiers have admitted recruiting Iraqis for the charade, blocking of the area so that nobody else can get in, and then telling them to tear down the statue while they filmed it. Not that I think that your average Iraqi liked Hussein, but disliking Hussein does not mean you have to like a foreign power who has invaded and destroyed the infrastructure, along with much of the cultural history of your country. You should read the blog of a girl who lives in Baghdad to get an alternative perspective (and not anti American or extremist) - Link. It's an interesting and informative read.

AJCrowley, if there were a time machine and you could turn back the hands, what would you have done? I don't pose that as a rhetorical question. I mean it sincerely. What would you have done? Left Saddam in power? Continued an embargo, knowing that corruption had made Oil for Food a sad, sad joke?

I know many people from the Middle East. I don't view them as barbarians. They are friends and in some sense, distant relatives. I get my hair cut at the barbershop of a Palestinian, who came to the US from Amman, Jordan. We sit and talk politics. I am almost always the only non-Palestinian in the place. I find that we disagree in detail, but agree in overall direction. Almost surprisingly so.

What do you do about the election in Iraq? Yes, the religous extremists were far better at getting the vote out. Yes, they got one of their candidates elected and people are afraid. So, what do you do? Invalidate the election? Throw him out? Replace him with a candidate more to our liking? What do you do?

A last point. Read your own post. How many broad, sweeping generalizations do you offer? "Americans (always the loudest ones) have no sense of empathy at all." "many people in your country hate Bush" "The BBC, and CBC are two of the only news agencies left in the world that you can rely on for unbiased news"

Perhaps you want to qualify these a wee bit. After all, no generalization is always true, not even this one.

By the way, nice to see you around again.

koop

AJ - Kupe doesn't post very often but when he does, it pays to take heed.

Kupe - That was scathingly honest. I wish I could give that one comment multiple Insightfuls.

nothing I have or can say at this point constitutes proof

Aj - That would sum up the vast majority of your statements.

Hmmm an interesting position. I was opposed to the Iraq War before it happened but I have found myself less opposed to it in retrospect and I find much of the continuing objections of the Left to be stubbornness. It is hard to really get at the situation with us not living there. By the same token, just living there doesn't necessarily mean you have any concept of what people's lives are like in different areas to you. Just look at how little people in cities understand country lifestyles. I think the invasion has brought some good things and some bad things. On balance I'm not sure if the invasion has turned out for the better or not.

But I do think it's important to make an important distinction on your comparison with an invasion of the USA. In democracy, you almost always get half the population hating the Government. However, even those who hate Bush could not claim to be as poorly treated by him as citizens of Iraq were treated by Hussein. They may disagree with Bush and Bush's policies may involve some inherently racist and culturally supremacist viewpoints that arguably are restricting the diversity of the community and restricting many people's personal identities, but they still have it better than the citizens of Iraq had it under Hussein. Bush is fairly non-violent within the confines of the USA and on that basis alone an invasion of the US would not be justified.

Indeed, the USA should be responsible for their actions.

For example, the network upon which you post this diatribe was developed in the US. We should have had the forsight to deny people such as yourself a voice. You were better off living your mundane life without the ability to be read by millions of people.

We should not have opposed the Nazis in Europe. After all, it was none of our business. We should have defended our borders and stayed out of it. The cost of life was too high for silly Europeans.

We should immediatly cut our world funding. After all, 66% of relief and charity distrubted across the globe comes from Americans. Who are we to feed the starving? Who are we to provide shelter? If humanity cant live on our level, then screw them, they dont deserve it.

We should keep our noses out of the Middle East. Let the dictators enslave, torture and gas each other. It matters not that the period of turmoil and pain they experience fighting for freedom will save more lives in the end game than it would have cost to keep the status quo. Actually, I'd like to our borders locked down. Let the rest of the world deal with the crazy fanatics blowing up bombs in schools and flying airplanes into buildings. We dont need it.

And if we did focus inward, perhaps we could deploy military in the streets. The few terrorists we do have might think twice. Timmy McVeigh? Maybe if the Federal Building in OKC had military checkpoints he'd have been bell-hopped to his own cozy little lava pit in hell before killing hundreds of innocents.

Too often we Americans are looked upon as soft, lazy and complacent. Yet time and again we innovate, we lead. Hate us if you will but be warned: we fought for this land and our way of life. We will do so again if need be... and the odds are stacked against you. What the world populace fails to realize we Americans are in nice mode atm. Stop pushing us and leave us to our intentions. Before we set our eyes on you.

I really would address all the false information in this article, but anyone who thinks the BBC is "unbiased" is beyond help.

"Kupe - That was scathingly honest. I wish I could give that one comment multiple Insightfuls." Thanks, Greywar, you made me blush.

Let me say that AJCrowley is a friend of mine and, while I disagree with some of his statements, I will defend unto death his right to offer them. Silly as they may be.....kidding, AJ, I'm just kidding.

But here is the dilemma when faced with evil. Do we do nothing? Do we wait for a perfect solution? Or do we do the best that we can? "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for a few good men to do nothing."

Abu Graib sickens me. No excuses and it will mark us for a long time. It was a failure of command, of those who should have known that young people, who are scared and wired, react poorly. We should have known that. Yet we made a terrible mistake...and America, for good or ill is held to a higher standard than other nations. The French who did nothing to stop the genocide in Rwanda will not be held to the same standard. Unjust? Yes. But that, my friends, is the way that it is.

America isn't perfect, never was and never will be. The thing is that some of the criticisms that are directed at us are internally inconsistent. Americans are heartless warmongers? But....Americans "really" didn't elect Bush? Which of those is correct? We have no business interfering in the affairs of other nations....but we aren't doing enough in the Sudan?

I think many young people of emotion become angry at America not for what we try to do, but for being less than perfect.

.

AJCrowley:

Did you favor or oppose the invasion of Afghanistan? We are in a hot war, see Sept 11.

I am disappointed, Al-Jazeera didn't meet your standard for news reporting?

What is your authoritative source for civilians killed by the US?

For another perspective http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It's been thought-provoking, to say the least. I read AJ as completely blinded by ideological anger, for whatever reason, apparently unable to see the events evolving in the Middle East in the larger context of the aspirations of its own residents, now beginning to be heard, empowered in no small degree by the tremendous sacrifices and yeoman efforts of thousands of selfless Americans, military & civilian, which overwhelm by far the missteps and failures of judgment such as Abu Ghraib. Acknowledging that human endeavors are never perfect, far more that is good has been happening in the Middle East over the past 3 years, including Iraq, than is bad.

In 1999, a free election occurring, ever, in Afghanistan was inconceivable.
In 1999, a free election in Iraq, ever, was inconceivable.
In 1999, Libya disavowing terror, ever, was inconceivable.
In 1999, the notion of Egypt entertaining even limited democratic reforms, ever, was inconceivable.
In 1999, a popular anti-Syrian demonstration for democratic reform in Lebanon, ever, was inconceivable.
In 1999, the notion of any Islamic organization issuing a fatwah against Osama bin Laden was inconceivable.

I would suggest that we all open our eyes and more solemnly consider what is occurring right in front of us. Those who just can't bring themselves to give Bush or his administration any degree of credit for any of this will discount the events and say they would have happened anyway if we had just been patient, but I don't buy that argument. Without the aggressive foreign policy and steadfast determination of the administration, I have doubts any of this would have occurred. While there is little to compare in all this with the prosecution of the Cold War, the one legitimate common thread is determination to confront a self-evidently evil foe.

Cheers,
Daiwa

An open letter to supporters of the Iraq war Democracy and Responsibility By: AJCrowley Posted: 3/10/2005 1:06:01 PM To Whom it May Concern (you know who you are), I am sick of hearing praises for George W. Bush, and his wonderful crusade to spread democracy through the Middle East

And we're sick of hearing people like you whine about Bush.

"If your soldiers arrest and torture innocent people,

Which ours don't do.