Liberal - not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. Open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. It's not a swear word pe
Democracy and Responsibility
Published on March 10, 2005 By AJCrowley In Politics
To Whom it May Concern (you know who you are),

I am sick of hearing praises for George W. Bush, and his wonderful crusade to spread democracy through the Middle East. Most recently is the various Bush fans claiming responsibility for Syria leaving Lebanon. The USA certainly had a hand in it, but this is something the Lebanese have been working on for over a decade, the US hardly deserves credit for being the sole precipitator of this change.

Though (so far) Bush's policy has really been truly disastrous in one country (Iraq of course), it looks like he's getting ramped up to invade anyone else who dares oppose him. It's hardly surprising that rogue states are seeking nuclear armament, they are under the very real threat of invasion by a foreign power, and the concept of mutually assured destruction kept the war between the US and the USSR cold for decades. A cold war is certainly prefereable to a hot one.

I'm also sick of seeing "for the camera" images, and romanticized and cleaned up stories appearing on all North American news agencies. The BBC, and CBC are two of the only news agencies left in the world that you can rely on for unbiased news, why? See: corporate conflicts of interest and agendas.

You know, there's something worse than living under a ruthless despot like Hussein - and that's living in chaos with a foreign invader shooting up civilians on a daily basis, and let's face it, for everyone that Hussein would have "disappeared" and tortured for no reason, the using is doing tenfold, so who's really evil here?

Part of the problem is that many Americans (always the loudest ones) have no sense of empathy at all. If your soldiers arrest and torture innocent people, well, that's just the price of war, but if someone tortures a US citizen, it's unbelievably barbaric and evil, and they should be nuked.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question based on real situations - many people in your country hate Bush, as many Iraqis hated Hussein, both are guilty of gestapo tactics, torture, and corruption - don't even bother trying to deny it, Cheney still makes a great deal of money from Halliburton, who strangely get overpriced no bid contracts. It's clearly matter of favours for favours in the Bush government. Anyway, back on point, half of your population hates Bush, so if some foreign power, say, China, decided that your people should be freed from the tyranny of George Bush, and they came to your country, destroyed the infrastructure so that you couldn't get electricity or running water any more than sporadically, even in your biggest cities. If China had bombed government and military buildings, as well as plenty of "collateral damage". Imagine that almost everyone you knew had lost family as a result of this. Imagine that they left your country covered in uranium dust, resulting in outrageous cancer and birth deformity rates. Would you be grateful for being liberated? Would people who hate Bush be grateful? This is the reality that people in Iraq have to live with every day because of the actions that were taken because of your government, who took these actions because they were your wishes, even if they had to lie to you to convince you. What this means is that any citizen of a country that invaded who supported the invasion bears partial responsibility, and cannot be taken seriously in claiming innocence. You, yes you are a murderer and a plunderer, these actions were taken in your name, and responsibility is the price of true democracy.

Maybe you'd have a little more empathy if before you go believing the bullshit from the usual suspects (well, it is cheaper to just parrot what the government tells you instead of having to do any actual journalism and investigation, and corporations that own the news have a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximize profits), you should try listening to what the actual Iraqis have to say.

There's a girl that lives in Baghdad that has one of the best blogs I've seen. There seems to be this impression in the US that people in the Middle East are barbarians, which is simply not the case, life there (when you're not getting invaded) is not tremendously different from life here or in the US, they are real people with real families, real friends, and real lives. She hated Hussein as much or more than any American, but now her life is far worse. She lives in the real fear, because their newly elected government has stated that they will incorporate Islamic law into their constitution. Their interpretation of that law means the beekeeper suits that you so love to talk about when preaching of the freedom you're spreading, or at least a head covering (no hair showing), and an ankle length skirt (no pants), and a wrist length loose top that doesn't show any shape. She used to be free to dress as she pleased in Iraq (which was exactly the same as many fashionable European and American women), and nobody could say anything about it, because for everything that was wrong about Hussein, he kept the government secular, and nobody dared challenge it. This kind of discrimination really is the will of the people in Iraq, this is the common Shia view, and the majority are Shia (remember the voting?), and believe this to be right. Can you really tell me that this is a country ready for true democracy? Where democracy doesn't mean freedom to do and express yourself as you please, but freedom to opress women? Even now, she gets many extremely rude comments about "dressing so disrespectfully", which she would have never put up with under Hussein, but now to argue the point too strongly would place her in real danger. These are the fruits of your invasion and your democracy, and I'll say it again, the fact that your democracy represents your wishes makes you wholly responsible for all of this. I highly recommend that you check out her blog, the url is http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com. Read it and understand what taking actions based on your assumptions of a situation about which you know nothing. Congratulations, freedom and democracy for all.

The world is hardly safer, if al Quaeda had an advertising campaign planned, they probably withdrew it because Bush has done a great job for them, there will be no shortage of people pissed off with the USA after losing their entire families and many friends.

Anyway, I could rant all day about this, and it drives me mad how ignorant so many people (not just Americans) are about the subject, yet still seem to have such a strong opinion on the matter, which in a democracy gets acted on, there's that responsibility thing again. Anyway, despite Bush's refusal to accept liability from an international court, so that soldiers who torture innocent people can be punished instead of just a couple of them scapegoated, and then pretending that the situation was just a few bad apples, and doesn't exist any more. Despite this, Bush and Blair should be held accountable. There should be trials for war crimes, don't try and tell me that torture isn't a war crime, and it's policy, not just a few bad apples. Because yet again this is a subject on which you are no doubt blissfully ignorant, I suggest that you read Amnesty International's letter to George Bush, it's very enlightening - http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511452004.

I doubt that I'll change anyone's mind with any of this, after all, what true American would accept responsibility for the true consequences of their actions when they can be cowardly and hide behind false patriotism, believing the propagandized and sanitized stories that their governments choose to tell them, but maybe a few people who are so strongly opinionated on the subject, yet know nothing of the real facts and the real effects of this will shut the hell up.

Comments (Page 3)
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on Mar 11, 2005
after lie ("We're sending all our troops their body armor!")


BTW rekki you do realize that body armour is Not all that good? Shoot at it with an AK round at close range and it'll go right through the vest. Body armour is designed to stop "low velocity" IE: pistol rounds not rifle rounds.
on Mar 11, 2005
As for the whole "WMD" thing being an intelligence problem, have you ever read real news? Several people have come forward to report cherry picking


Cherry picking? Have YOU ever really read and comprehended the news. Go do a google search. You will find that EVERY major intelligence agency thought he had WMD's. Not just Britian or the US.
on Mar 11, 2005
Well, people in general have a tendency to be liars,


Boy.....(as in small adult) you sure do like to paint with a broad brush, don't ya?
on Mar 11, 2005
BTW rekki you do realize that body armour is Not all that good? Shoot at it with an AK round at close range and it'll go right through the vest. Body armour is designed to stop "low velocity" IE: pistol rounds not rifle rounds.


Actually, that's not true. Point Blank's Interceptor body armor is designed for rifle fire. The ceramic trauma plates inserted inside the vest provide additional protection to the chest/back and are designed to stop high velocity projectiles, like that from rifle fire. The most resistant anti-ballistic plates I can find are the Gamma Plus plates. They are an inch thick, and the manufacturer claims that it can stop:

- 7.62x54mm R LPS 148.0 gr. at 2400+ fps multi-hit
- 5.56x45mm M855 Ball 62.0 gr. at 3300+ fps multi-hit
- 7.62x51mm M80 at 2925+ fps multi-hit
- 7.62mm NATO 148 gr. (.308 caliber) FMJ at 2780 fps without additional ballistic support


Regardless, the biggest risk to troops in Iraq is from bombs and RPG-7's rather than rifle fire. And I'm not aware of any body armor shortages. Perhaps 12 or 18 months ago.
on Mar 11, 2005
BTW rekki you do realize that body armour is Not all that good? Shoot at it with an AK round at close range and it'll go right through the vest. Body armour is designed to stop "low velocity" IE: pistol rounds not rifle rounds.


Actually, that's not true. Point Blank's Interceptor body armor is designed for rifle fire. The ceramic trauma plates inserted inside the vest provide additional protection to the chest/back and are designed to stop high velocity projectiles, like that from rifle fire. The most resistant anti-ballistic plates I can find are the Gamma Plus plates. They are an inch thick, and the manufacturer claims that it can stop:

- 7.62x54mm R LPS 148.0 gr. at 2400+ fps multi-hit
- 5.56x45mm M855 Ball 62.0 gr. at 3300+ fps multi-hit
- 7.62x51mm M80 at 2925+ fps multi-hit
- 7.62mm NATO 148 gr. (.308 caliber) FMJ at 2780 fps without additional ballistic support


Regardless, the biggest risk to troops in Iraq is from bombs and RPG-7's rather than rifle fire. And I'm not aware of any body armor shortages. Perhaps 12 or 18 months ago.


You are correct. That is as long as their not using AP (armour piercing) rounds. And those come in all sizes including NATO rounds.
on Mar 11, 2005
You are correct. That is as long as their not using AP (armour piercing) rounds. And those come in all sizes including NATO rounds.


Various 5.56x45mm rounds
Various 7.62x39mm rounds
Various 7.62x51mm rounds
Various 7.62x54R rounds
on Mar 11, 2005

Biggot?!? Me? A what-you-would-call- minority? Wake up and quit with the crack and the hoes that go with it.

If you think that minorities are immune to bigotry, you've proven your bigotry in the statement alone.

on Mar 11, 2005

am sick of hearing praises for George W. Bush, and his wonderful crusade to spread democracy through the Middle East.

Simple Question.  Simple Answer - Stop listening.

on Mar 11, 2005

And I thought Dabe was the looniest ones we had here at JU.  Hey Dabe,if you are reading this,your mantle of hoonor is being usurped by Reiki Homeless and AJcant tell!

on Mar 11, 2005
Actually, that's not true. Point Blank's Interceptor body armor is designed for rifle fire. The ceramic trauma plates inserted inside the vest provide additional protection to the chest/back and are designed to stop high velocity projectiles, like that from rifle fire. The most resistant anti-ballistic plates I can find are the Gamma Plus plates. They are an inch thick, and the manufacturer claims that it can stop:

- 7.62x54mm R LPS 148.0 gr. at 2400+ fps multi-hit
- 5.56x45mm M855 Ball 62.0 gr. at 3300+ fps multi-hit
- 7.62x51mm M80 at 2925+ fps multi-hit
- 7.62mm NATO 148 gr. (.308 caliber) FMJ at 2780 fps without additional ballistic support.


Oops, now I must correct myself. I've found even more potent body armor.

Model AA4 - NIJ Certified Level IV Stand Alone

"Stand-alone" plates are designed to stop ballistic threats using the plate alone. No ballistic vest is required for this plate, as all the energy and fragments are stopped in the plate. These plates are usually reserved for tactical operations or anti-terrorist work where the ammunition threat is unknown, or if the wearing of a vest is considered too cumbersome. Material: Aramid Fiber Bonded AL98, Aluminum Oxide 98%
Size 10" x 12"
Curvature: Triple Curve
Front/Back: Front
Finish: Nylon Cover
Protection Level: NIJ Certified Level IV Stand Alone

Maximum Weight: 2.2 kg
It will defeat the following threats:
7.62 × 54mm lead core ball ammunition, Dragunov Sniper Rifle at 0 meters
7.62 × 54mm AP, Dragunov Sniper Rifle at 0 meters
7.62 × 51mm NATO ball ammunition at 0 meters
7.62 × 51mm AP M-61 at 0 meters
7.62 × 51mm Swiss Munitions AP (WC Core) at 0 meters
7.62 × 39mm mild steel core, AK-47 at 0 meters
7.62 × 63mm AP at 0 meters
5.56 × 45mm SS109/M855 at 0 meters
5.56 × 45mm M193 ball at 0 meters
5.45 × 39mm Russian ball at 0 meters
12 gauge slug at 0 meters
on Mar 11, 2005
AJ Crowley: Bravo!
I tip my hat to you ... But please understand that you will not change a lot of these peoples minds. These are the
"fools" among us who ONCE believed

1) it was acceptable to count 5 black men as 3
2) believed anyone should be burned on a stake until they confessed to witchcraft
3) believed it was God's behind the slaughter of innocent Native American population to acquire their land.

They are all cut from the same ILK!

>Part of the problem is that many Americans (always the loudest ones) have no sense of empathy at all. If your soldiers
>arrest and torture innocent people, well, that's just the price of war, but if someone tortures a US citizen, it's unbelievably
>barbaric and evil, and they should be nuked

Amen.
Thats why I believe this world would be safer once Nuclear Weapons were readily available in the hands of more Nation. But
look who is pushing the most to prevent that ... the neighborhood bully!!!

>so if some foreign power, say, China, decided that your people should be freed from the tyranny of George Bush, and
>they came to your country, destroyed the infrastructure so that you couldn't get electricity or running water any more

Dude, thats TOO much logic for some of these simpletons to groke.

>I doubt that I'll change anyone's mind with any of this, after all, what true American would accept responsibility for the true
>consequences of their actions when they can be cowardly and hide behind false patriotism, believing the propagandized and
>sanitized stories that their governments choose to tell them,

Have you noticed the people screaming the loudest for use of military force DO NOT SERVE in the military. I have always
wondered what makes a Soldier JUST take orders ... what sort of mindset functions without questions. Mindless minions
serving an unjust cause. They and their families NEVER stop to think,

How many of the administrations family members and relative are serving in the armed forces. If what they are doing is so
just ... where are their family members ALL absent.
on Mar 11, 2005
>Actually, we agree on this one. The USA certainly did have a hand in it, but Bush hs been saying for years that people
>everywhere always want democracy, and always work towards it. I think that Bush would be the first to give the people
>of Lebanon the credit they so richly and wonderfully deserve, for stepping up so boldly at this time. And many of these
>same Lebanese seem to be giving the US credit for promoting such a thing in the region. So, um, AJCrowley and I should
>both be pretty happy, here. I know I am, at least.

stutefish you fool, did you read the papers on Tuesday?

Did you witness the over 1 million people marching IN SUPPORT of Syria and against the US interference in their affairs.?
Even modest estimates placed their numbers at 10 TIMES that of the much televised opposition.

Freedom is on the march right ? Remember true "freedom" includes the decision to HATE YOU and YOUR POLICIES
on Mar 11, 2005
stutefish your ignorance and stupidity amaze me:


>Since Hussein's shenanigans resulted in mass graves, holding the bodies of tens of thousands of Iraqis, we should expect
>to see mass graves holding hundreds of thousands of Iraqi victims of US shenanigans, right?

Google "fallujah" and "2004"
Remember the U.S forces do not count Iraqi dead ... so very convenient isnt it.

By the way, where are the so called Mass Graves we where all told about? How many are left after you subtract the soldiers
who died during the Iran/Iraq war ... a war you FULLY supported?
on Mar 11, 2005
>They're getting sick of the terrorists, who no longer even try to represent Iraqi best interests (did they ever?), but only
>to keep things off balance.

One mans "terrorist" is another mans "freedom fighter"

>Open your eyes, Crowley. Despite the continuing violence, we're winning hearts and minds. The bad guys are getting
>desperate....even Hillary and Teddy are starting to agree with that.

Before Bremer left Baghdad a poll was taken to gauge Iraqi perceptions of the occupation. Did you know that over 85% of
the populous was against you ... a number that excalated above the 95% mark when the Kurdish Region was removed from
the equation.

Hillary is a fool. The same woman in 1999 that stated publicly that the U.S should deal fairly between the Palestinians and
Israelis is now unbelievably pro Israeli. Lately we hear her spouting off her love of God, to win support from the right, in lieu
of a future presidential bid.

Your first problem was to think we were all in support of the Democrats!!! We are not, most of those fools have long been
bought off by corporate interests and PAC commitees.
on Mar 11, 2005
>The lies you point out were admitted to...for example, the torturers at Abu Grahib are being dealt with...

Making that fool Grainer the fall guy .. thats sure admitting mistakes ... you are hilarious

>the elections were a success (I wish we had 72% tunrout for US elections), much to the consternation of those like you,
>who wish to focus only on the negatives.

Well the elections in South Vietnam were also a success: read below

*************************************************************************************************
U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote :
Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror

by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967: p. 2)

WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.

According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong.

The size of the popular vote and the inability of the Vietcong to destroy the election machinery were the two salient facts in a preliminary assessment of the nation election based on the incomplete returns reaching here.

. . . A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson's policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam....
*******************************************************************************************************

And where are we NOW?
Those who dont learn from history are doomed to repeat it!

>before they bear fruit. Turning a former dictatorship mired for untold generations in religious and tribal differences into a
>democracy, while being violently resisted by those who would see that democracy fail, will take time.

Except you NEVER went there for democracy.

>And just for the record, if I wasn't an epileptic, I would gladly be there, serving my country and helping the Iraqi people
>to appreciate the benefits of democracy.

LIAR.
I have heard that "epileptic" excuse numerous times ... Why not just "suck it up" and go. In between epileptic bouts I am
certain you would make good cannon/rpg fodder in your NOBLE CAUSE

By the way .. wasnt College an option ... you CAN read cant you?
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