So many counter-arguments, so little time. I'll briefly touch on just two of them:

Most recently is the various Bush fans claiming responsibility for Syria leaving Lebanon. The USA certainly had a hand in it, but this is something the Lebanese have been working on for over a decade, the US hardly deserves credit for being the sole precipitator of this change.


Actually, we agree on this one. The USA certainly did have a hand in it, but Bush hs been saying for years that people everywhere always want democracy, and always work towards it. I think that Bush would be the first to give the people of Lebanon the credit they so richly and wonderfully deserve, for stepping up so boldly at this time. And many of these same Lebanese seem to be giving the US credit for promoting such a thing in the region. So, um, AJCrowley and I should both be pretty happy, here. I know I am, at least.

But then there's this:

let's face it, for everyone that Hussein would have "disappeared" and tortured for no reason, the using is doing tenfold, so who's really evil here?

Since Hussein's shenanigans resulted in mass graves, holding the bodies of tens of thousands of Iraqis, we should expect to see mass graves holding hundreds of thousands of Iraqi victims of US shenanigans, right?

I'm curious to know if AJCrowley admits any statute of limits to his claims. If we never find such mass graves, will he withdraw his allegations? If no military or civilian whistleblower ever steps forward to testify that they participated in or witnessed such wholesale, institutionalized slaughter, will Crowley consider the possibility that he is mistaken? If the Iraqi people themselves never present any serious, legitimate claims, supported by evidence, will Crowley apologize for the horrible but baseless accusations he has made?

Enquiring minds want to know.

I disagree with George W. Bush, but the fact is, he WAS elected by the American electoral process. The deception of the US media played no small part in that reelection (by refusing to cover other candidates besides Bush/Kerry), but the fact is, the process was/is FAR more democratic than under the Hussein regime.

While the civilians in the Middle East should not be construed as barabarians, many of their governments (including that of Saddam Hussein) have EXTENSIVE documented human rights violations by groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch that tend to have a LIBERAL, rather than a conservative following. This blogger is likely NOT one of the Iraqi people who had family members disappear under mysterious circumstances under Hussein's regime, nor is she likely one of the Kurds, who had been the victims of one of the greatest post WWII ethnic cleansing campaigns perpetrated by any government, and who long clamored for US assistance.

I believe war is a moral wrong. I also believe that our current president misled the American people, although he didn't lie outright, as many of the left claim, to begin this conflict. But I also am not willing to ascribe to Bush the mantle of "evil dictator"; MOST of his policies with which I disagree (the US Patriot Act and NCLB) were results of intense DEMANDS from activist groups that Bush ignore the Constitution and usurp the powers of the states. Many of the demands as to NCLB, ironically came from the leftist crowd that now wants to villainize the man.

George W. Bush is no saint. He's not the man I wanted for the office, nor, for that matter, was Kerry. But our president is, I believe, a man trying to run a country that was hit with one of its worst civilian tragedies early in his tenure in office.

As to your claims of objectivism among broadcast agencies such as the BBC and CBC, I tend to believe you yourself are misled. Objectivism is nearly impossible to achieve in journalism, and I would MUCH SOONER trust a free market media than one that is run and controlled by the government. Can we say "conflict of interest", anyone?

Thank you for a stimulating discussion. Although I differ with your position, you presented it well. I am looking forward to more of your work.

I believe my claims to be true, but if they are ever proven false, I am not so pig headed as to refuse to concede a point. The mass graves that Hussein made are I believe mostly made up of Kurds who were gassed using American supplied gas, but I do not truly know, and I doubt that anyone on this forum could claim to truly know, as you only know so much as your media wants you to know. My figure of ten times may have been exaggerated for dramatic effect, but I believe without hesitation that at least as many, if not more people are suffering unlawful arrest, torture, degradation, or simply being shot for nothing. Of course, the number isn't really what's important here, what's important is that there is blood on peoples' hands, which they choose to simply pretend isn't there, or truly believe it isn't there because they are so ready to believe anything that they are told by people with clear agendas (for your government, check the Project for a New American Century and its membership). I believe that your government knows a lot more than they tell, and September 11th isn't the first time that something tragic has happened that so cleanly fits into the category of advancing the government's pre-existing (and not necessarily hidden) agenda. I'm not saying that they're definitely behind it, but there's a lot they're not telling you, and the least it deserves is a truly independant and in depth investigation into the inconsistencies, destruciton of evidence, lack of reasonable procedure and investigation (Bush resisted every step of the way even submitting to the sham investigation that was put together).

Anyway, I could talk all day. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on every, or any point, I just hope that it makes you consider the possibility that there are elements of this that are outside of your and my knowledge, and it's really not the rosy picture over there that they're painting for you.

Thanks for your feedback.

"destroyed the infrastructure so that you couldn't get electricity or running water any more than sporadically, even in your biggest cities"

This article was so off-kilter and full of venom and bile that I stopped reading it. It's called anger management training....look into it. The above quote did jump out at me, though...
One of the first things the US did after things "calmed down" was to try and restore the amenities...electricity, water, etc. Our efforts, acording to a friend who actually served there, were greatly hampered by insurgents and pro-Hussein partisans who would blow up power stations or water lines, in an effort to stir up anti-American sentiment. Well, the majority of the people apparently understood that they were being manipulated, and the fact that we're trying to restore a decent standard of living. They're getting sick of the terrorists, who no longer even try to represent Iraqi best interests (did they ever?), but only to keep things off balance.
Open your eyes, Crowley. Despite the continuing violence, we're winning hearts and minds. The bad guys are getting desperate....even Hillary and Teddy are starting to agree with that.

There's blood on everybody's hands. None of us are perfect. The greatest undertakings of our age (or any age) are marred by mistakes and malfeasance brought about by human weakness.

Once we understand that all human endeavors start out on equal footing, and all are doomed to at least partial falure, the propriety of celebrating what limited successes we do achieve, while continuing to oppose extensive evil and foolish failure, becomes obvious, and obviously good.

Anyway, I could talk all day. I

This I believe whole-heartedly.

"If your soldiers arrest and torture innocent people, well, that's just the price of war, but if someone tortures a US citizen, it's unbelievably barbaric and evil, and they should be nuked."
"There seems to be this impression in the US that people in the Middle East are barbarians"
It is impossible to explain and fully convey how much the white man's racism has it's tentacles around our most basic so-called 'truisms' we take for granted every day. Western academics are infested with what I call social racism. It's not based on race racism but rather the denial of equality and fair balance when comparing to the white man. And it's so obvious but only if you think about it logically for a long time. It's not something that one would even consider since it was put in our heads at such an early age. Indians lived in villages. The white people lived in towns. A white man's victory over the Indians was referred to as a battle. An Indian victory over the white people was referred to as a massacre. It's a learned trait most everyone goes through early in our learning life. Nice thread by the way but it's still not 200% logical because the hawks out there won't even budge at 100% logical. It won't be enough to get anyone to change their minds, which is sad, in a way, since it extends the lies even further. The hawks have made fools of themselves by being so stupidly gullible to believe lie (Iraq's oh so scary phantom WMD program) after lie ("We'll find the WMD fellas!) after lie ("US does not torture Iraqis") after lie ("We're here to bring Iraq freedom!") after lie ("We're sending all our troops their body armor!") after lie ("capturing hussein will win the Iraqi's minds and hearts and they will be able to speak freely and will welcome and thank the US!") after lie ("A broken Fallujah will break the 'terrorist insurgent''s back and make Iraq safer!") after lie ("the elections have furthered democratic success!") after lie ("we's used us a hand arm signals, we's blinked ah lights, we's was shoutin' hollerin' something awful, it's just was racin faster than ah motherf**kah man") after lie. For them to admit to one lie would be the same as asking them to fall on their swords. Which we all know they won't do because most of the hawks are of military age yet are not walking the walk so to speak.Most of them insult Germany and France and Canada for not going in on the illegal war. Yet they don't see that they're not doing anything either. Just whining about other country's not in Iraq, while not in Iraq either. All the lies are dominoes for most of the drones in North America. People may be ignorant to reality but they're not all stupid. Most can and have most likely changed their minds over other serious issues before, so the potential for a change for the better is always present. If one domino falls, the rest of the lies are nothing more than gravy. It's getting the first one to topple that's the hardest. Some hawks are pigheaded and naturally disinclined to admit being wrong which is of course just one more characteristic that makes one less of a man.

It is impossible to explain and fully convey how much the white man's racism has it's tentacles around our most basic so-called 'truisms' we take for granted every day.

I suspected you were a hate filled bigot, thank you for proving it once and for all.

It is impossible to explain and fully convey how much the white man's racism has it's tentacles around our most basic so-called 'truisms' we take for granted every day.

And yet Reiki-House's racism is trivial to prove, by comparison.

Next up:

Nice thread by the way but it's still not 200% logical because the hawks out there won't even budge at 100% logical.

True enough, but perhaps instead of "hawks" we should say "people who know that you can't really double 100% logical in the first place". Logic!

On to the "lies!"

lie (Iraq's oh so scary phantom WMD program) Mistake, made by pretty much every major intelligence service and national government in the world, at the time.

after lie ("We'll find the WMD fellas!) More likely a combination of overconfidence and bad intel.

after lie ("US does not torture Iraqis") I'm still inclined to believe that the U.S., as a matter of policy, does not torture Iraqis. But this one is still open to debate, so who knows? One reaches the conclusions one can, from the information provided. But please let's not pretend that our own prejudices and unsubstantiated beliefs play a huge part in the conclusions we reach. And let's also not pretend that Reiki-House is prejudice-free.

after lie ("We're here to bring Iraq freedom!") Prove that we're not, Reiki.Certainly the Iraqis have made great progress (though at great cost) towards personal freedom recently. Much greater than any progress being made to provide the U.S. with cheap puppet-state oil.

after lie ("We're sending all our troops their body armor!") These things take time. It's not like the last 20 years have been kind to defense spending. A bulletproof vest for every soldier is a nice fantasy, but hardly realistic, in any context.

after lie ("capturing hussein will win the Iraqi's minds and hearts and they will be able to speak freely and will welcome and thank the US!") And in fact, many Iraqis hearts and minds were won even before Hussein was captured, and many Iraqis do speak freely and welcom and thank the US on a daily basis. Expectations that such attitudes would be more prevalent were probably based, again, on overconfidence and bad intel, rather than a policy of lying.

after lie ("A broken Fallujah will break the 'terrorist insurgent''s back and make Iraq safer!") Overconfidence and bad intel again? Probably. But perhaps "breaking" Fallujah really did have an effect on the insurgency. Have you gotten access to the battle plans and reports from the field, Reiki? Perhaps you could give us some more details on exactly how the insurgency has been affected by the Fallujah campaign. Please, though: no word of mouth or quoting from media reports. First-hand knowledge of the battlefield and its evoloution over the past two years only, please.

after lie ("the elections have furthered democratic success!") Well, they did, didn't they? It's not like anybody is saying that the elections completed democratic success.

And finally:

after lie ("we's used us a hand arm signals, we's blinked ah lights, we's was shoutin' hollerin' something awful, it's just was racin faster than ah motherf**kah man") Ew. Just... ew. Not only is this totally unsubstantiated claim (that the soldiers at the checkpoint are lying) a lie itself, but it's repugnant and despicable. This comment opens and closes with Reiki's own unconcealed racism and bigotry, and is occupied mainly with empty repition of tired old canards.

But see, R-H...we "hawks" do admit our wrongs and mistakes. We first went into Iraq, officially, to take care of the WMDs. Now, personally, I've always felt that Bush the Younger went in to take care of what Bush the Elder was unable to, because of UN politcal meddling. Did that make it wrong? No, not really....Saddam deserved what he got. He was a cruel, evil man who killed people because he could. Sometimes the right thing really is done for the wrong reason.
We know now that there were no WMDs...but, as I've said before, we, led by a Republican president, went in with the blessings of the Democrats, who for years thought, as did everyone else, that Saddam had his nuke program and his other WMDs.
It was only after the intelligence was found to be faulty that that was found to be not to be the case. The Dems, however, true to form, can never admit their mistakes and say, "ooookay...well, we thought they were there, too....so...we can all bite the bullet on this one." No, instead, they all converged on Bush's war and have ridden his ass relentlessly for it.
In case you haven't noticed, victory in Fallujah, while not "breaking the back" of the insurgents, has caused them to significantly alter their strategy; they now focus more of their attacks on the Iraqis themselves, whom they undoubtedly see as collaborators. This alteration has brought more and more of the Iraqi people to our side, which is a good thing. The Iraqi people will tire quickly of being targets, as would anyone. This is bad PR for the insurgents.
The lies you point out were admitted to...for example, the torturers at Abu Grahib are being dealt with...the elections were a success (I wish we had 72% tunrout for US elections), much to the consternation of those like you, who wish to focus only on the negatives.
It's you, R-H, and people like you, who simply will not see that some good is starting to come of this. Things often take time before they bear fruit. Turning a former dictatorship mired for untold generations in religious and tribal differences into a democracy, while being violently resisted by those who would see that democracy fail, will take time. There's no magic wand anyone can use to make it all better right now.
Like spoiled children, though, you want it NOW! And if you can't have it now, you'll piss and moan about it, pouting and crying, mired in your myopic perceptions of total negativity. Well, you can't have it right now. Give it time, though. Good things come to those who wait.

And just for the record, if I wasn't an epileptic, I would gladly be there, serving my country and helping the Iraqi people to appreciate the benefits of democracy.
I joined the Army right out of High School, but was rejected for having seizures in basic. Not all of us hawks talking the talk are unwilling to walk the walk. I'd be there in a heartbeat if they'd have me.

What I find amazing about the WMD issue is that the same people who have no trouble seeing improbably vast and sophisticated conspiracies in our own government seem totally incapable of admitting the possibility that Saddam Hussein could have maybe--just maybe!--perpetrated such a simple conspiracy as moving his WMDs some time between when he knew the U.S. was going to invade and the time the U.S. finally lost patience with U.N. delaying tactics.

I mean, seriously! Come on, people! Karl Rove can perpetrate the most massive frauds of all time, without leaving a shred of concrete evidence behind, but Saddam Hussein can't move his shit into Syria?

George Bush can fool an electorate that is apparently ten times stupider than Bush himself, but the people who can see right through Chimpy McHitler fell for the old "nerve gas labeled as pesticide" trick?

I swear, in the Scooby-Doo episode that is geopolitical affairs, the conservatives are Fred, Daphne, and Wilma, and the liberals are Shaggy and the Scoob. And Scrappy. Lots of liberal Scrappies, out there.

I swear, in the Scooby-Doo episode that is geopolitical affairs, the conservatives are Fred, Daphne, and Wilma, and the liberals are Shaggy and the Scoob. And Scrappy. Lots of liberal Scrappies, out there.

I get to be Fred.

Wow, some of you right wing types, I don't expect you to accept everything I say wholeheartedly, but please at least take the time to read the information I've made freely available. You say you still do not believe that torture is a matter of policy - there have been government policy statements made public that outline torture procedures, and George Bush has yet to come forward and state that the US will never use torture as a technique for trying to get information, but at least I have to give him credit for not lying on that one. You don't believe that the account of US soldiers firing upon Italians could possibly be correct? The big difference between the stories here is that the Italians have no reason whatsoever to lie, the US have every reason.

As for the whole "WMD" thing being an intelligence problem, have you ever read real news? Several people have come forward to report cherry picking and stovepiping of information (look it up), and some of the biggest pro war statements that Bush made, he made after it was proven to be false, and the intelligence community knew and had told Bush that it was categorically false. Don't try and tell me he didn't lie. There were also plenty of people who could have told you that Bush was lying from the beginning, I'm one of them, but I'm mainly referring to respected and influencial thinkers. There were still more that came forward and said, I quote (perhaps not verbatim, but close), "The war against Iraq will be won decisively and quickly, shortly following which, the US will find itself in a war against the Iraqi people that it can never win.", it didn't exactly take Madam Cleo (I miss her adverts) to work it out.

Anyway, as I've said, my purpose is not to convert people (nice as that would be), but to provoke thought and real debate that might make some people at least look at some facts before making statements that are known to be false, such as "The US does not have a policy of torture". I do get the feeling that the person who mentioned the Iraqi girl didn't even bother to take a glimpse at her site, which is a shame, because it's extremely interesting, insightful, and one of the few places you can get a real account of what's going on from someone who's only agenda is not to be persecuted. I'd guess that fewer of you still read Amnesty International's letter to George Bush, which is a shame too, because if you had, you'd know that there have been government documents made public that outline its policy of torture. Last thing, the guy who slagged off the BBC and CBC, you are a fool. These agencies are neither owned nor operated by the government, they're owned by "the people", and have proven that they will not simply bow to what the governments want them to say time and time again, unlike your beloved CNN, Fox, NBC, ABC, CBS etc etc.

Just to add to the point, suppose there was someone staying in your family's house, who would, for a fact that you would come to know, cause the deaths of 10 people in the future (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there, because you have yet to have any facts on your side). Would you be ok with it if one day while you were out, I bombed your house, killing this person along with your entire family and any pets and possessions. Would you be ok with it because "it was for the greater good"? Maybe things will turn out ok, who knows? And who knows if things would have turned out even better if this war hadn't been waged? Does that mean that the people now should be grateful for what they're forced to endure?

"I suspected you were a hate filled bigot, thank you for proving it once and for all"
Back to section 8 little one. Holy crap that was a really stupid thing to type. Biggot?!? Me? A what-you-would-call- minority? Wake up and quit with the crack and the hoes that go with it.
Prove that we're not Reiki.....No foolish one the onus is one you to prove that the US is there to bring 'freedom' and the bullshit that goes with it. When you're blowing the shit out of babies and women holding those babies, or Italian journalists, the burden of proof falls on the killer's side don't you think? Why should a peaceful guy like myself have to prove the US is exporting 'freedom' to Iraq? All I have to do is see the death and continual carnage the US illegal war has inflicted on an innocent population. For, you I'm sure, already know the reasons for the illegal war have turned out to be lies, which I and millions of others hopelessly tried to inform the drone-hawk folks out there that it was all based on lies...to no avail...Nothing in Iraq has gone right except the long-term solidifying of US control of Iraqi oil reserves. Check out the oil lines and then the US base lines and see for yourself. Proof lies in events, and Iraq is out of control and the innocent deaths are skyrocketing. And don't say things would get better if the 'insurgents' would only hand over their weapons. Ask yourself if YOU would stop trying to attack an occupying army which was occupying your city in the US? If it were YOUR neighbourhoods which were being levelled with everyone in them? If it were YOUR friends being shot and killed by an occupying army in YOUR hometown? The reasons for war have been proven to be false. Isn't it rational, IF IT WEREN'T ONLY ABOUT OIL, for the US to leave and pay reparations for being so wrong to such catastrophic effect? What's keeping them there? I know it's the oil of course, but what else could it be? Because the US likes the US-sanctioned-to-death-Iraqi civilians in Iraq so much that they feel they want to do them a good turn? Don't be naive folks. If the US truly cared for the civilians they would have fed them rather than sanction them. They would have nourished them rather than deny them. What's the matter with you people? Have a heart and finally see the truth.

"I suspected you were a hate filled bigot, thank you for proving it once and for all"
Back to section 8 little one. Holy crap that was a really stupid thing to type. Biggot?!? Me? A what-you-would-call- minority? Wake up and quit with the crack and the hoes that go with it.
Prove that we're not Reiki.....No foolish one the onus is one you to prove that the US is there to bring 'freedom' and the bullshit that goes with it. When you're blowing the shit out of babies and women holding those babies, or Italian journalists, the burden of proof falls on the killer's side don't you think? Why should a peaceful guy like myself have to prove the US is exporting 'freedom' to Iraq? All I have to do is see the death and continual carnage the US illegal war has inflicted on an innocent population. For, you I'm sure, already know the reasons for the illegal war have turned out to be lies, which I and millions of others hopelessly tried to inform the drone-hawk folks out there that it was all based on lies...to no avail...Nothing in Iraq has gone right except the long-term solidifying of US control of Iraqi oil reserves. Check out the oil lines and then the US base lines and see for yourself. Proof lies in events, and Iraq is out of control and the innocent deaths are skyrocketing. And don't say things would get better if the 'insurgents' would only hand over their weapons. Ask yourself if YOU would stop trying to attack an occupying army which was occupying your city in the US? If it were YOUR neighbourhoods which were being levelled with everyone in them? If it were YOUR friends being shot and killed by an occupying army in YOUR hometown? The reasons for war have been proven to be false. Isn't it rational, IF IT WEREN'T ONLY ABOUT OIL, for the US to leave and pay reparations for being so wrong to such catastrophic effect? What's keeping them there? I know it's the oil of course, but what else could it be? Because the US likes the US-sanctioned-to-death-Iraqi civilians in Iraq so much that they feel they want to do them a good turn? Don't be naive folks. If the US truly cared for the civilians they would have fed them rather than sanction them. They would have nourished them rather than deny them. What's the matter with you people? Have a heart and finally see the truth.